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# /r/Peloton Pre-TDF Survey 2020
Gentlemen, Ladies and those otherwise addressed - we know you've been waiting for a good thing, and the survey results are finally ready! The answers were collected from you all during August 2020 with 1428 unique replies. That's a participation of 0.5% of all subscribers! That's really not too bad, when you keep in mind how popular these kind of surveys are. But we here at /peloton want to show you that this is all about presenting the information in the subreddit to cater better to our audience! Updated after a few hours to include some more historical data the final edit that for some reason wasn't copied properly
Without further ado, let's get cracking on the response
You and Cycling
1. Where do you live?
Largely the same picture as ever, with the US leading the way, the UK in second and then a sliding scale of Europeans countries. Slovenia continues to pick its way up the pile for obvious reasons! World Map to demonstrate
2. What's your age?
Pretty much the same as last year, with the usual reddit demographics of majority 20 somethings dominating.
3. What's your gender?
More normality here for reddit.
4. How much of the men's season do you watch/follow?
March '18 (%)
August '18 (%)
WT Stage races
WT One day races
Non WT Stage races
Non WT One day races
Literally everything I can consume
Whilst GT following may be down (somehow), all the lower level stuff is up, which makes sense considering how desperate we have been for any racing during the season shutdown.
5. Do you maintain an interest in women's professional road racing?
Do you maintain an interest in women's professional road racing?
Still very much a half/half interest in women's cycling on the subreddit.
6. How much of the women's season do you follow?
The following is true for the half of you that follows womens cycling.
Just the biggest televised events
Most of the live televised/delayed coverage stuff
All televised racing
Down to .Pro & beyond
7. How long have you been watching cycling?
Under a year
25 years +
Simplified the years a little this time, but whilst we have a fair number of newbies, most people have picked the sport up since around 2013/14.
8. Do you have like/dislike feelings about WT teams?
Once more, 14.4% of people really don't have feelings on the subject. Of those that do:
So, the most popular team this year is Jumbo-Visma, followed by Quick-Step & Bora-hansgrohe. Least popular are Ineos & UAE. As per usual, no one cares about NTT & CCC, with nearly 81% of users rating NTT as meh. Pretty damning stuff. Lastly, we have the usual historical comparison of how teams have fared over time, normalised to respondents to that question on the survey. Things to note then, firstly that the Astana redemption arc is over, seeing them back in the negative, maybe Fulgsangs spring issues helped aid that? The petrodollar teams of UAE & Bahrain are stubbornly negative too, with Israel keeping up the Katusha negative streak. Meanwhile, at the top end, EF & Jumbo go from strength to strength, whilst some others like Sunweb are sliding over time - their transfer policies no doubt helping that.
10. Do you ride a bike regularly?
No, I don't
Still a fairly small group of racers out of all of us
11. Out of the sports you practice, is cycling your favourite?
A new addition to the survey prompted by a good point last time, just over half of us rate cycling as the favourite sport we actually do.
12. What other sports do you follow?
Association Football / Soccer
Track & Field
Esports (yes, this includes DotA)
Motorsports (Not including F1)
Football always tops the charts, and Formula 1 continues to rank extremely highly among our userbase. Those who have a little following below 5% include Sailing, Fencing, Surfing, Boxing & Ultra-Running. Other cycling disciplines
13. Out of the sports you follow, is cycling your favourite sport?
Good. Makes sense if you hang out here.
14. How often do you participate in a /Peloton Race Thread whilst watching a race?
I always participate in Race Threads during races
I follow Race Threads during races
I often participate in Race Threads during races
I rarely/never participate in Race Threads during races
Slightly less invested than before, reverting back to an older trade.
15. How do you watch Races?
Free Local TV
Desperately scrabbling for Youtube highlights
Paid Streaming services
Year on year, paid streaming services go up - the increasing availability of live content legally continues to improve, and so do the numbers on the survey.
16. Where else do you follow races live (in addition to watching them)?
We can safely say that most of us were wrong about this one. That's not a lot of confidence in Richie Porte either, the man who was to finish on the third spot of the podium. Alexander Foliforov (0,23%) had just a tiny number of votes less, and that man wasn't even in the race.
24. What for you was the defining cycling moment of the previous decade?
We had a lot of brilliant suggestions, but these were the clear five favourites when we tabulated the results.
2018 Giro - Chris Froome Solo Attack
2016 TDF - Chris Froome Running up Ventoux
2019 TDF - Landslides, First Columbian Winner, Pinot's bitter abandon - This was one race for the ages
2016 Paris-Roubaix - Mostly known for Tom Boonen losing. Also, some guy called Mat won.
2019 AGR - MvdP with his incredible catch-up for the win.
Honorable mentions go to the Giro 2018, which had Tom Dumoulin winning, and of almost identical fascination to many of you - Tom Dumoulin going on someones porta-potty in the middle of the stage. Little bit of recency bias perhaps, but that's better than ignoring that this was for the last decade and firmly insisting Tom Boonens 2005 WC win was the biggest thing. Special shoutout to almost all the Danes present in /peloton who voted for Mads Pedersens WC win last year. It's an understandable reaction.
25. Any suggestions for the Survey?
Could you add a section on rider popularity, same as for the teams?
Ask how people became interested in cycling
Ask how people watch cycling (e.g. TV Channels/Streaming etc.)
If you could be an animal for one day, which one would it be?
Would you wear a facemask while watching a cycling race live?
Which race do you look forward to see the most every year?
Favourite riders of your own country?
How many bikes do you own?
We promise to feature one of these suggestions in the next survey Suggestions
Always have a “no” or “not interested” option
We will try to implement this. But it will also skew results. About the Survey
More questions about womens cycling would be nice.
Less questions about womens cycling
The subscribers are torn on Women's cycling, nearly a 50/50 split there as the survey showed - The moderators at /peloton are firmly in the "more cycling is better" basket, and we will continue to get as good coverage of womens cycling as possible.
Are you trying to give the moderators PTSD? Because this is how you give the moderators PTSD.
26. Any suggestions for the sub?
More stationary fitness bike related content
ALSJFLKAJSLDKJAØLSJKD:M:CSAM)=#/()=#=/")¤=/)! - Your moderator seems to be out of function. Please stand by while we find you a new moderator
The Weekly threads are great for these types of questions, where several people can contribute and build up once it is understood which information is relevant.
Allow limited doping talk in result threads.
Our experience is that "limited" will never be so, if we're going to moderate it fairly. Moderating is not a popularity contest, but believe it or not, we're actually trying to be as fair as possible. and for that, we need rules that are not subjective. Unless you have a stationary exercise bike.
Written original content is always great - recaps, old race reviews or interesting rider bios, etc.
More non-race threads
Try and do some AMAs with pro cyclists, coaches, trainers, etc
All of these are good suggestions, but remember that all of you can also contribute - The mods are sometimes stretched thin, specially in the middle of hectic race schedules. It's easier if one of you has a way to contact a rider or a person of interest and can facilitate the initial communication.
Standardize major event thread titles for better search.
We've worked on this! The Official Standard is now as follows: [Race Thread] 202x Race Name – Stage X (Class)
A wiki that explains how races work. Roles of diff riders/support staff. History of racing.
This sounds as a nice community project for the after-season, and hopefully many of you subscribers can contribute.
Tidy up the sidebar!
Come with suggestions on how to tidy it up!
Don't assume everyone reading is a man, "thanks, bro". But that goes for all of Reddit. I know you can't fix that.
We have chastised all the mods. They are now perfectly trained in gender-neutral pronouns. Be well, fellow being.
Have a buy you a beer link for the mods for all the work you do.
If we can implement this for hard liquor, you know we will.
Remove the spoiler rule during grand tours. It kills the hype.
The spoiler rule is one that is discussed frequently - in general - some users absolutely hate it, but a majority love it. Perhaps we'll include a question in the next survey to see how this divide is exactly.
Lose the spoiler tag when it is for serious things; Lambrecht death, Jakobsen fall.
We actually do - whenever there is a matter of life or death, we think public information is more important than a spoiler rule. But at the same time, we try to collect all the different posts into one main thread, so to keep things focused and letting very speculative posts meet with hard evidence from other sources.
Less downvoting of opinions that differ from the fashionable consensus.
This is a tough ask of the internet. While we can agree that voting should be done accordingly to what insights they bring, not subjective opinions, it is very hard to turn that type of thinking around. We can ask of you, our subscribers, that you please think twice about hitting that downvote button, and only do so because of you think a post is factually incorrect, not because it differs with your own subjective opinion. That's the primary analysis of the survey! Feel free to contribute with how you experience things here!
Hi everyone, this is my first ever post here. I run a little website called The Thought Experiment where I talk about various issues, some of them Singapore related. And one of my main interests is Singaporean politics. With the GE2020 election results, I thought I should pen down my take on what us as the electorate were trying to say. If you like what I wrote, I also wrote another article on the state of play for GE2020 during the campaigning period, as well as 2 other articles related to GE2015 back when it was taking place. If you don't like what I wrote, that's ok! I think the beauty of freedom of expression is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm always happy to get feedback, because I do think that more public discourse about our local politics helps us to be more politically aware as a whole. Just thought I'll share my article here to see what you guys make of it :D Article Starts Here: During the campaigning period, both sides sought to portray an extreme scenario of what would happen if voters did not vote for them. The Peoples’ Action Party (PAP) warned that Singaporeans that their political opponents “might eventually replace the government after July 10”. Meanwhile, the Worker’s Party (WP) stated that “there was a real risk of a wipeout of elected opposition MPs at the July 10 polls”. Today is July 11th. As we all know, neither of these scenarios came to pass. The PAP comfortably retained its super-majority in Parliament, winning 83 out of 93 elected MP seats. But just as in GE2011, another Group Representation Constituency (GRC) has fallen to the WP. In addition, the PAP saw its vote share drop drastically, down almost 9% to 61.2% from 69.9% in GE2015. Singapore’s electorate is unique in that a significant proportion is comprised of swing voters: Voters who don’t hold any blind allegiance to any political party, but vote based on a variety of factors both micro and macro. The above extreme scenarios were clearly targeted at these swing voters. Well, the swing voters have made their choice, their roar sending 4 more elected opposition MPs into Parliament. This article aims to unpack that roar and what it means for the state of Singaporean politics going forward. 1. The PAP is still the preferred party to form Singapore’s Government Yes, this may come across as blindingly obvious, but it still needs to be said. The swing voter is by its very definition, liable to changes of opinion. And a large factor that determines how a swing voter votes is their perception of how their fellow swing voters are voting. If swing voters perceive that most swing voters are leaning towards voting for the opposition, they might feel compelled to vote for the incumbent. And if the reverse is true, swing voters might feel the need to shore up opposition support. Why is this so? This is because the swing voter is trying to push the vote result into a sweet spot – one that lies between the two extreme scenarios espoused by either side. They don’t want the PAP to sweep all 93 seats in a ‘white tsunami’. Neither do they want the opposition to claim so much territory that the PAP is too weak to form the Government on its own. But because each swing voter only has a binary choice: either they vote for one side or the other (I’m ignoring the third option where they simply spoil their vote), they can’t very well say “I want to vote 0.6 for the PAP and 0.4 for the Opposition with my vote”. And so we can expect the swing voter bloc to continue being a source of uncertainty for both sides in future elections, as long as swing voters are still convinced that the PAP should be the Government. 2. Voters no longer believe that the PAP needs a ‘strong mandate’ to govern. They also don’t buy into the NCMP scheme. Throughout the campaign period, the PAP repeatedly exhorted voters to vote for them alone. Granted, they couldn’t very well give any ground to the opposition without a fight. And therefore there was an attempt to equate voting for the PAP as voting for Singapore’s best interests. However, the main message that voters got was this: PAP will only be able to steer Singapore out of the Covid-19 pandemic if it has a strong mandate from the people. What is a strong mandate, you may ask? While no PAP candidate publicly confirmed it, their incessant harping on the Non-Constituency Member of Parliament (NCMP) scheme as the PAP’s win-win solution for having the PAP in power and a largely de-fanged opposition presence in parliament shows that the PAP truly wanted a parliament where it held every single seat. Clearly, the electorate has different ideas, handing Sengkang GRC to the WP and slashing the PAP’s margins in previous strongholds such as West Coast, Choa Chu Kang and Tanjong Pagar by double digit percentages. There is no doubt from the results that swing voters are convinced that a PAP supermajority is not good for Singapore. They are no longer convinced that to vote for the opposition is a vote against Singapore. They have realized, as members of a maturing democracy surely must, that one can vote for the opposition, yet still be pro-Singapore. 3. Social Media and the Internet are rewriting the electorate’s perception. In the past, there was no way to have an easily accessible record of historical events. With the only information source available being biased mainstream media, Singaporeans could only rely on that to fill in the gaps in their memories. Therefore, Operation Coldstore became a myth of the past, and Chee Soon Juan became a crackpot in the eyes of the people, someone who should never be allowed into Parliament. Fast forward to today. Chee won 45.2% of the votes in Bukit Batok’s Single Member Constituency (SMC). His party-mate, Dr. Paul Tambyah did even better, winning 46.26% of the votes in Bukit Panjang SMC. For someone previously seen as unfit for public office, this is an extremely good result. Chee has been running for elections in Singapore for a long time, and only now is there a significant change in the way he is perceived (and supported) by the electorate. Why? Because of social media and the internet, two things which the PAP does not have absolute control over. With the ability to conduct interviews with social media personalities as well as upload party videos on Youtube, he has been able to display a side of himself to people that the PAP did not want them to see: someone who is merely human just like them, but who is standing up for what he believes in. 4. Reserved Election Shenanigans and Tan Cheng Block: The electorate has not forgotten. Tan Cheng Bock almost became our President in 2011. There are many who say that if Tan Kin Lian and Tan Jee Say had not run, Tony Tan would not have been elected. In March 2016, Tan Cheng Bock publicly declared his interest to run for the next Presidential Election that would be held in 2017. The close result of 2011 and Tan Cheng Bock’s imminent candidacy made the upcoming Presidential Election one that was eagerly anticipated. That is, until the PAP shut down his bid for the presidency just a few months later in September 2016, using its supermajority in Parliament to pass a “reserved election” in which only members of a particular race could take part. Under the new rules that they had drawn up for themselves, it was decreed that only Malays could take part. And not just any Malay. The candidate had to either be a senior executive managing a firm that had S$500 million in shareholders’ equity, or be the Speaker of Parliament or a similarly high post in the public sector (the exact criteria are a bit more in-depth than this, but this is the gist of it. You can find the full criteria here). And who was the Speaker of Parliament at the time? Mdm Halimah, who was conveniently of the right race (Although there was some hooha about her actually being Indian). With the extremely strict private sector criteria and the PAP being able to effectively control who the public sector candidate was, it came as no surprise that Mdm Halimah was declared the only eligible candidate on Nomination Day. A day later, she was Singapore’s President. And all without a single vote cast by any Singaporean. Of course, the PAP denied that this was a move specifically aimed at blocking Tan Cheng Bock’s bid for the presidency. Chan Chun Sing, Singapore’s current Minister of Trade and Industry, stated in 2017 that the Government was prepared to pay the political price over making these changes to the Constitution. We can clearly see from the GE2020 results that a price was indeed paid. A loss of almost 9% of vote share is very significant, although a combination of the first-past-the-post rule and the GRC system ensured that the PAP still won 89.2% of the seats in Parliament despite only garnering 61.2% of the votes. On the whole, it’s naught but a scratch to the PAP’s overwhelming dominance in Parliament. The PAP still retains its supermajority and can make changes to the Constitution anytime that it likes. But the swing voters have sent a clear signal that they have not been persuaded by the PAP’s rationale. 5. Swing Voters do not want Racial Politics. In 2019, Heng Swee Keat, Singapore’s Deputy Prime Minister and the man who is next in line to be Prime Minister (PM) commented that Singapore was not ready to have a non-Chinese PM. He further added that race is an issue that always arises at election-time in Singapore. Let us now consider the GE2015 results. Tharman Shanmugaratnam, Singapore’s Senior Minister and someone whom many have expressed keenness to be Singapore’s next PM, obtained 79.28% of the vote share in Jurong GRC. This was above even the current Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, who scored 78.63% in Ang Mo Kio GRC. Tharman’s score was the highest in the entire election. And now let us consider the GE2020 results. Tharman scored 74.62% in Jurong, again the highest scorer of the entire election, while Hsien Loong scored 71.91%. So Tharman beat the current PM again, and by an even bigger margin than the last time. Furthermore, Swee Keat, who made the infamous comments above, scored just 53.41% in East Coast. Yes, I know I’m ignoring a lot of other factors that influenced these results. But don’t these results show conclusively that Heng’s comments were wrong? We have an Indian leading both the current and future PM in both elections, but yet PAP still feels the need to say that Singapore “hasn’t arrived” at a stage where we can vote without race in mind. In fact, this was the same rationale that supposedly led to the reserved presidency as mentioned in my earlier point. The swing voters have spoken, and it is exceedingly clear to me that the electorate does not care what our highest office-holders are in terms of race, whether it be the PM or the President. Our Singapore pledge firmly states “regardless of race”, and I think the results have shown that we as a people have taken it to heart. But has the PAP? 6. Voters will not be so easily manipulated. On one hand, Singaporeans were exhorted to stay home during the Covid-19 pandemic. Contact tracing became mandatory, and groups of more than 5 are prohibited. But on the other hand, we are also told that it’s absolutely necessary to hold an election during this same period, for Singaporeans to wait in long lines and in close proximity to each other as we congregate to cast our vote, all because the PAP needs a strong mandate. On one hand, Heng Swee Keat lambasted the Worker’s Party, claiming that it was “playing games with voters” over their refusal to confirm if they would accept NCMP seats. But on the other hand, Heng Swee Keat was moved to the East Coast GRC at the eleventh hour in a surprise move to secure the constituency. (As mentioned above, he was aptly rewarded for this with a razor-thin margin of just 53.41% of the votes.) On one hand, Masagos Zulkifli, PAP Vice-Chairman stated that “candidates should not be defined by a single moment in time or in their career, but judged instead by their growth throughout their life”. He said this in defense of Ivan Lim, who appears to be the very first candidate in Singaporean politics to have been pushed into retracting his candidacy by the power of non-mainstream media. But on the other hand, the PAP called on the WP to make clear its stand on Raeesah Khan, a WP candidate who ran (and won) in Sengkang GRC for this election, stating that the Police investigation into Raeesah’s comments made on social media was “a serious matter which goes to the fundamental principles on which our country has been built”. On one hand, Chan Chun Sing stated in 2015, referring to SingFirst’s policies about giving allowances to the young and the elderly, “Some of them promised you $300 per month. I say, please don’t insult my residents. You think…. they are here to be bribed?” On the other hand, the PAP Government has just given out several handouts under its many budgets to help Singaporeans cope with the Covid-19 situation. [To be clear, I totally approve of these handouts. What I don’t approve is that the PAP felt the need to lambast similar policies as bribery in the past. Comparing a policy with a crime is a political low blow in my book.] I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point. And so did the electorate in this election, putting their vote where it counted to show their disdain for the heavy-handedness and double standards that the PAP has displayed for this election. Conclusion I don’t say the above to put down the PAP. The PAP would have you believe that to not support them is equivalent to not wanting what’s best for Singapore. This is a false dichotomy that must be stamped out, and I am glad to see our swing voters taking a real stand with this election. No, I say the above as a harsh but ultimately supportive letter to the PAP. As everyone can see from the results, we all still firmly believe that the PAP should be the Government. We still have faith that PAP has the leadership to take us forward and out of the Covid-19 crisis. But we also want to send the PAP a strong signal with this vote, to bring them down from their ivory towers and down to the ground. Enough with the double standards. Enough with the heavy-handedness. Singaporeans have clearly stated their desire for a more mature democracy, and that means more alternative voices in Parliament. The PAP needs to stop acting as the father who knows it all, and to start acting as the bigger brother who can work hand in hand with his alternative younger brother towards what’s best for the entire family: Singapore. There is a real chance that the PAP will not listen, though. As Lee Hsien Loong admitted in a rally in 2006, “if there are 10, 20… opposition members in Parliament… I have to spent my time thinking what is the right way to fix them”. Now, the PAP has POFMA at its disposal. It still has the supermajority in Parliament, making them able to change any law in Singapore, even the Constitution at will. We have already seen them put these tools to use for its own benefit. Let us see if the PAP will continue as it has always done, or will it take this opportunity to change itself for the better. Whatever the case, we will be watching, and we will be waiting to make our roar heard once again five years down the road. Majulah Singapura! Article Ends Here. Here's the link to the actual article: https://thethoughtexperiment.org/2020/07/11/ge2020-the-roar-of-the-swing-vote And here's the link to the other political articles I've written about Singapore: https://thethoughtexperiment.org/2020/07/07/ge2020-the-state-of-play/ https://thethoughtexperiment.org/2015/09/10/ge2015-voting-wisely/ https://thethoughtexperiment.org/2015/09/05/expectations-of-the-opposition/
The historic task of cultural change is to resolve throughout the dominant culture the distortions of rationalist human/nature dualisms that deny our ecological embodiment and membership of the global ecological community.
For (Moses) Hess, the cardinal sin of the Judaic people was to abandon their heritage, while the cardinal objective of his Communism was to persuade all other people to abandon theirs… Communism was the means for achieving Judaic supremacy over the gentiles. The gentiles were fated to be reduced to a faceless, deracinated mass. Capitalism was also capable of producing this effect, through free trade and the unfettered financialization of society, in which the management of money becomes a vast business in itself, and where the highest virtue, after obeisance to Judaism, is profit.
ve’ahavta (“love your neighbor as yourself”) admonition to Goyim for regarding their Jewish neighbors; as for the Jews themselves, haba le-horgecha, hashkem le-horgo (“he who comes to kill you, rise early and kill him first” as told in 3 Little Pigs))
(wolf) attempts to trick third pig out of his (brick) house by asking to meet him at various places, but he is outwitted each time (3rd pig rises early, does the suggested task, and saves himself from being eaten)
Garrett Hardin writes: "The essential characteristic of a tribe is that it should follow a double standard of morality -- one kind of behavior for in-group relations, another for out-group." -Wild Taboo "It is a tragic irony that discrimination has produced a species (homo sapiens) that now proposes to abandon the principle responsible for its rise to greatness."
Competitive Exclusion Principle In the competition for living space and resources between two species (or two groups that occupy the same ecological niche), one will inevitably and inexorably eliminate the other. “In a finite universe – and the organisms of our world know no other – where the total number of organisms of both kinds cannot exceed a certain number… one species will necessarily replace the other species completely if the two species are “complete competitors, i.e., live the same kind of life.”
In Latest Binary Options Scams, Fraudsters Pose as SEC Agents
Most of the binary options scams we have seen to date have taken two principle forms: shady trading websites, or marketers who promise impossible returns using their systems or signals. In the wake of the collapse of the binary options industry, we are seeing a new, even more pernicious type of con. Binary options con artists are now posing as SEC agents, contacting victims of binary options fraud and promising to “help” them recover their lost funds. Two such scammers are Frank Gregory Cedeno and Leonel Valerio Santana. Between June 2015 and June 2017, the two masqueraded as SEC officials, and contacted victims who had lost money trading with companies such as Banc de Binary which were being sued by the SEC and the CFTC. The scammers informed the victims (incorrectly of course) that they had to pay a fee if they wanted to partake of the settlement from the case. The scammers were able to extort over $235,000 from at least 25 victims in this way. In the process, they also stole the identities of real SEC employees and undermined the trust between the SEC and the public. Most recently, the government of the US filed a Sentencing Memorandum with the Massachusetts District Court against Santana. If the government gets its way, Santana will spend 78 months in prison, followed by 36 months of release under supervision. He will also need to pay $105,869.74 in restitution. If you are entitled to part of a settlement associated with a case filed by the SEC or CFTC against a binary options company, you do not need to pay a fee. Be wary of correspondences which look and sound official, but suggest that you need to pay. Report them to the SEC or CFTC yourself, and await a response to your inquiry. The last thing you need is to be scammed twice.
These 25 top-voted posts from r/btc this week show that users and miners are working on real solutions to help Bitcoin move forward, while Core/Blockstream are obstructing progress and losing support. Please help spread this information (including translating for the Chinese-speaking community)!
Antpool Will Not Run SegWit Without Block Size Increase Hard Fork
Leaders of Core had a childish little selfish tantrum about wanting to work on what cool stuff they wanted to build and wouldn't listen. It would have been relatively safe and easy to introduce the 2mb HF if it was progressed collectively and collaboratively with good will by all parties. All of this could have been avoided long ago. There is one person who is very influential who we know to be adamant about blocks being confined to 1mb.
Hardfork in July 2017 will be too late. If you read the statement by Peter "I don't have a clue about economics" Todd you might start to puke. “Unfortunately Bitcoin simply doesn't scale well" How about you start to tell what exactly doesn't scale you fuckhead? P.S.: The blockchain is growing indefinitely, if you don't like that fact you should choose something else than cryptocurrencies or come up with a better way.
This is classic narrowmindedness on PT's part. He'd also be the first one to say that the internet is not sustainable as it produces exponentially more and more data. These guys are fucking idiots and really have no idea what they are talking about, all they see is "BLOAT!" and "TOO BIG FOR CURRENT NODES!" then react accordingly without even thinking about the fact that Bitcoin's usefulness mitigates these limiting factors almost entirely.
People are starting to realize how toxic Gregory Maxwell is to Bitcoin, saying there are plenty of other coders who could do crypto and networking, and "he drives away more talent than he can attract." Plus, he has a 10-year record of damaging open-source projects, going back to Wikipedia in 2006.
There are limits on routing table sizes, but they are not top-down-specified-in-a-standards-document protocol limits. They are organic limits that arise from whatever hardware is available and from the (sometimes very contentious!) interaction of the engineers keeping the Internet backbone up and running.
We've long established that the 1mb limit (or their refusal to remove it) has absolutely nothing to do with technical concerns. It's a political matter, whose raison d'être we can only infer. Time to stop the bullshit and the [s]quabbling. Chinese miners wake up! Time to try something new. It quite literally can't be worse than what's going on right now.
Bitcoin has become embroiled in debate over the block size - an important topic for the health of the network, but not something that should halt progress in a young and rapidly developing field. The developer community in Bitcoin feels fairly dormant. Bitcoin never really made it past the stage of simple wallets and exchanges. Bitcoin’s “leadership” is ... toxic. Greg Maxwell, technical leader of Blockstream which employs a solid chunk of Core developers, recently referred to other Core developers who were working with miners on a block size compromise as “well-meaning dips***s.”
This was a good sobering read. It is also worth noting that Coinbase was left with little choice but to broaden its offerings given the current state of Bitcoin usability ... When BS hijacked BTC away from being money, it screwed a lot of business and usage plans. ... Praise be to the free market and the market place of ideas.
REPOST from 12/2015: "If there are only 20 seats on the bus and 25 people that want to ride, there is no ticket price where everyone gets a seat. Capacity problems can't be fixed with a 'fee market'; they are fixed by adding seats, which in this case means raising the blocksize cap." – Vibr8gKiwi
By the way, this shows that a certain other trending OP from today: Why all the disinformation? Full blocks DO NOT matter, what matters is transaction fees. Currently $0.05 ...is total bullshit. But that other OP was posted in an echo-chamber of censorship (r\bitcoin). That is dangerous (for them), because it allows them to enjoy the illusion that they are right - when in reality, they are wrong, because they are ignoring the fact that full blocks DO matter: because the overflow goes elsewhere (into fiat, into alts, etc.).
Bitcoin exchange and wallet service Coinbase is adding support for ether, the native cryptocurrency of the Ethereum network. ...
This is quite significant. I would interpret this as a loss of confidence in Blockstream to provide what customers need in a timely manner. While Blockstream wastes time figuring out how to stuff all the world's transaction data into their beloved tiny blocks, the market will move on to solutions that can actually scale and can scale NOW.
Opinions on Gavin over there are variously: 1 - Why aren't you coding for Core? 2 - Which agency do you work for? 3 - Haha classic suxxor A very telling series of questions that the false agenda has fermented and sunk in.
It's actually kind of brilliant ! Think about it: no need for super dangerous hard forks, and not even soft forks. No new code needed, no testing, nothing. All it took was 2-3 years of endless stalling, organizing some fake conventions, a bit of character assassination and demonization here and there, nothing major. Done. It was actually very well-thought-out. Congratulations and hat off to nullcadam3us and all their drones.
Bitcoin is a giant, global "Consensus-tron" based on a fundamental meta-rule: "51% Consensus based on Greed / Self-Interest" ("Nakamoto Consensus"). Blockstream/Core is trying change this meta-rule, to make it "95% Consensus" ("Extreme Consensus") - the MOST CONTENTIOUS change conceivable in Bitcoin The main characteristic of Bitcoin is that it is basically a kind of global "consensus-producing machine" or "Consensus-tron" - which runs based on a fundamental meta-rule of "51% Consensus + Greed / Self-Interest" - also called "Nakamoto Consensus". Recently, Blockstream has started trying to quietly change this fundamental meta-rule of Bitcoin based on "51% Consensus + Greed / Self-Interest" ("Nakamoto Consensus"). Instead, they have proposed a totally different meta-rule based on "95% Consensus" - which they like to call "Strong Consensus", but a better name would probably be "Extreme Consensus", to show what an extreme change it would be.
Every binary vote has an opposite side. 95% consensus is actually 5% consensus of the opposing team. Would you like a 5% consensus system? No? Then you wouldn't like a 95% consensus system. That's why 50% is the only valid threshold -- because it's the only one that makes both sides equal.
Continuing on this road , soon Coinbase and Circle will probably allow to send and receive Ether, and Coinbase and Bitpay will offer the option to pay in Ether. At that point Gregonomic fee pressure will go out of the window. The first mover led the ground work, but it's not an exclusive advantage. Bitcoin needs to wake up from the Blockstream-induced coma !!!
This is so painfully obvious. The users do not want a "fee market". Blockstream is absolutely hell-bent on giving us one, despite there being no need for a "fee market" at this point in time. Therefore the free market will do its job and provide an alternative to Bitcoin, and the users will move to the alternative where they will get what they actually want.
Bitcoin users are speaking out, and they want bigger blocks. Compare these 2 OPs: r\bitcoin: "Full blocks DO NOT matter, what matters is transaction fees" (100 upvotes) vs btc: "Capacity problems can't be fixed with a 'fee market'; they can only be fixed by raising the blocksize cap" (200 upvotes)
The block size issue has turned me off to bitcoin entirely, I no longer evangelize, no longer buy or use them. Blockstream has destroyed all the good-will I had for Bitcoin. Once the block sizes are larger, and continue rising with use, I'll be interested again. until then, Bitcoin can wallow in the fail
Damn fucking straight, the larger block side has been compromising for over a year and they have refused to compromise from day one. Now is not the time to compromise, now is the time to sweep them aside as they have brought nothing to the table. These devs shouldn't even be given the time of day considering their open contempt for larger blocks and the miners should be finding devs that will give them what they need, rather than trying to negotiate with asshats that refuse to negotiate.
"It's truly funny how blockstream are dead against 2mb of block data using traditional transactions along with linear signature validation... but blindly think that 2.85mb of segwit + confidential payment codes + other features is acceptable." And also funny that their roadmap allows for 5.7mb blocks when blockstream decide its ok for the hard fork.. yet they cant explain what network bandwidth restrictions are currently preventing 2mb now but weirdly and suddenly not an issue for 5.7mb next year...
It's a matter of ego and politics. From a computer science standpoint, Adam Back wanted the 2-4-8 mb scaling originally, which would have been completely safe (and smart). Segwit is required for the Lightning Network and some other things Blockstream wants to centralize and profit from. No better way to get something you need in there than making it necessary for scaling and saying it's the best solution. Segwit is a backwards approach compared to the easier and cleaner solution of increasing the blocksize
maaku7: "I don't know anyone who is actually working on a hard fork right now (although I'm sure someone is). Keep in mind very few core developers were at the HK meeting and that 'agreement' is mostly not acceptable to those who were not there." The Hongkong Farce. Great job Core and Chinese/Georgian 'miners'!
HF will never happen unless miners switch client. The problem is miners still trust Adam & Co. The day Mike Hearn left, he told me: "Both Adam Back and Gregory Maxwell are extremely skilled manipulators, timewasters and both of them have been caught lying red handed. I strongly suggest you just ignore both of them. I do not plan to take part in Bitcoin related discussions further". From my experience, Adam will tell you whatever you want to hear, but do something different behind your back. Just look at his presentations he gave to the miners and others, they are full of lies and inaccuracies. This isn't rocket science. I just can't understand why people keep buying bullshit from a guy who's not even a core dev, but president of a company that only benefits from making sure Bitcoin itself is crippled so people are forced offchain.
That was known opinion by Mark [Friedenbach, maaku7]. He said right after HK that it is not Core's agreement, that individual developers there were not representatives for Core. And that the HF block limit increase is not an option. I don't know what are miners still expecting and waiting for.
There's more than enough developer talent in the Bitcoin space to ensure a hard fork comes off successfully, but the Core developers have divided the community with lies to make it more difficult to pull off. Instead of helping achieve it, they have created community-wide FUD.
My opinion is that we can't have Blockstream at all involved in Bitcoin any longer. If you keep them involved, even after a blocksize increase, we will suffer in the future. Similar to malware, you have to remove it.
Hearn describes in the interview how people in the developer scene do not truly want the cryptocurrency to be decentralized.
“They say they want so, but that’s not what they want. Bitcoin is a young, unripened Democracy, in which a group of developers hold the power. And this group is desperately trying to prevent a real vote on the future of Bitcoin.” ... “[They] won’t vote against Core, because [they’ve] been told voting is dangerous,” Hearn elucidates. “The miners are not per se against proposals to increase the capacity, such as something like Bitcoin Classic wants. The miners refuse to vote. At this point, some developers, including myself, lost interest, because we realized it no longer was a debate about the block size. Suddenly it was trying to convince Chinese people democracy is a good thing.”
~ Mike Hearn
Sadly, he sounds like the voice of reason in a world gone mad.
I think the Berlin Wall Principle will end up applying to Blockstream as well: (1) The Berlin Wall took longer than everyone expected to come tumbling down. (2) When it did finally come tumbling down, it happened faster than anyone expected (ie, in a matter of days) - and everyone was shocked.
When push comes to shove, people are going to remember pretty damn quick that open-source code is easy to patch. People are going to remember that you don't have to fly to meetings in Hong Kong or on some secret Caribbean island ... or post on Reddit for hours ... or spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on devs ... in order to simply change a constant in your code from 1000000 to 2000000.
This is so true. I mean, look at the logic. If $0.01 is not enough, and everyone sets it at $1.00, then it is still not enough because the number of transactions at the 'higher' price is still too many and blocks are still full with transactions being ignored.
The core devs (Wladimir and Maxwell) do not care about the price of bitcoin. They do not care to give investors a clear indication of what capacity will be in the near or mid future. This is contrary to the fact that everything else is known. Roger Ver is right. Investors (Hodlers) are a large part of what makes bitcoin valuable. Without a clear indication of what capacity is going to be in the future there is no clear indication of what the worth of Bitcoin actually is.
Unfortunately, I know of multiple companies with more than 100,000,000 users that have put their bitcoin integration on hold because there isn't enough current capacity in the Bitcoin network for their users to start using Bitcoin. Instead they are looking at options other than Bitcoin.
Gregory Maxwell (nullc) & /bitcoin have deleted my posts They have also banned me from any discussion on their subreddit. I was simply posting that Gregory Maxwell (nullc) is lying when he says "the Chinese Bitcoin community stands behind us". This is false, they do not. In fact, a respected member from the Chinese Bitcoin community said this: "Do you know that what you are doing is harming bitcoin by spreading misinformation? I'm from China. I can just tell you the common sense in the Chinese Community of Bitcoin. No one likes BlockStream now! People in China all know that it is Greg Maxwell who is blocking bitcoin by limiting block size. I dare say, your company can never develop any business in China in the future."
Jihan of Antpool, great response in regards to Chinese Bitcoin discussion on /bitcoin I was banned from:
Maxwell, When you talking about "in fact", it smells like no fact. You are spreading very serious rumors about the mining network situation. Antpool has been connected to Relay Network and also testing a new network called Falcon after being invited. The total network orphan rate has been keeping lower and lower in the past months, which is an evidence that the network is working in a much better situation. Antpool in the past April have only 1 orphaned block, which is an evidence that there is no selfish mining situation - a selfish mining attack will generate higher orphan rate on both competitors and attackers. On the https://poolbench.antminer.link/, you can find ... the performance of a mining pool. (This is a third party site, this is fact.) Antpool and other mining pools had made the position clear as water since in the Hong Kong meeting, that SegWit+HF [is] coming as package. If you just realized right now, ... the communication problem inside Core, you cannot blame anyone else. We will not activ[ate] the SegWit until seeing the promised (by "individuals" yes I know Maxwell could not be represented) HF code being released in Bitcoin Core. If everything is progressed according the HK Consensus, the SegWit will not be stalled. The SegWit as a very th[o]rough improvement/change [and] will need to be carefully tested and reviewed after its release, at least for several months. During which time the HF can be proposed, defined, implemented and released. While the max blocksize limit lifting can be activated later, but as the code is already contained in the release, most of the economic nodes in the network will be compatible with the coming blocksize bumping up. Bitcoin is a worldwide economy infrastructure and it requires working together and moving forward. Greg, you need to have some self control from talking like a human flesh fascist propaganda machine, trying to attack anyone who disagree with you. Please don't tag those concerns as "pro-altcoin". (Another evidence of your problematic speaking style.) The concerns are genuine concerns. Some of the concerns coming from people who hold very large stake of Bitcoin since early time. Bitcoin is not the only cryptocurrency in the town. I also see some small blockers are very active in the competing coin development. You cannot use this methods to distinguish people at all. Then stop judging people's intention and unrelated behavior but focus on the problem itself. The only thing I have to add is that you can't wait for Mr. Maxwell and his company to deliver their promise. It is a toxic arrangement and we need to focus on looking past them, repairing the damage and working towards the future. When there are too many lies and scandal involved, you have to cut your losses and walk away. Investors around the world will be confident once we start making firm moves. Positive press from Forbes will help repair confidence with investors. Either way, thank you! We are all committed to working together.
In successful open-source software projects, the community should drive the code - not the other way around. Projects fail when "dead scripture" gets prioritized over "common sense". (Another excruciating analysis of Core/Blockstream's pathological fetishizing of a temporary 1MB anti-spam kludge)
The essence of Gavin's point reminded me of the things the Agile Manifesto was meant to address. ... The behaviour of Blockstream is like the most pathological cases of capital-E Enterprise software development I've seen.
Why is it not recognized that ANY block size limit is a hack on a hack Bitcoin will NOT work right until the size limit hack is removed entirely. The limit is being leveraged to justify many actions. All of which would be moot if the limit did not exist.
You're absolutely right. Miners have always regulated the size of their own blocks and still do. We see it in the form of excluding zero-fee transactions, SPV mining, spam filtering, etc. They will do the same without a limit. All in the name of maintaining profitability.
“There's no better way to overpower a trickle of doubt than with a flood of naked truth” - A preview of the St Kilda Football Club’s 2016 season
St Kilda Football Club - 2016 Preview /StKilda | Official Website Fortius Quo Fidelius ("Strength through loyalty") Premierships (1): 1966 Grand Finals (7): 1913, 1965, 1966, 1971, 1997, 2009, 2010 Finalists (26): 1907, 1908, 1913, 1918, 1929, 1939, 1961, 1963, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1991, 1992, 1997, 1998, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 Wooden Spoons (27): Get Fucked Club Summary “Every Tuesday I sit down with the CEO and the Football Manager to discuss the season's agenda. Well, discuss is probably the wrong word. They talk while I sit quietly and imagine their lightly salted faces frying in a skillet.” Captain: Nick Riewoldt Coach: Alan Richardson CEO: Matt Finnis President: Peter Summers Assistant Coaches: Danny Sexton (Director of Coaching & Strategy), Rohan Welsh (Defence), Adam Kingsley (Midfield), Aaron Hamill (Forwards), Adam Skrobalak (Ruck; part-time), Danny Frawley (Specialist Defence Coach; part-time). 2015 in Review 14th: 6 wins - 15 loses - 1 draw @ 78.4 Trevor Barker Medal:Jack Steven (2nd) Best Clubman Award:Jarryn Geary Best Emerging Player:Jack Lonie Player Trademark Award:Maverick Weller Leading Goal Kicker:Josh Bruce (50) 2015 Brought a host of experts predicting another dire year for the Saints, with some even predicting a winless season, and as BT would put it ‘Boy oh Boy’ they were wrong. Lead by the emergence of Josh Bruce, David Armitage and Jack Steven the Saints won 6 games, However more importantly were much more competitive against the best teams in the league. Unfortunately big losses to Carlton, West Coast and Sydney showed we have a lot of work to do Season Highlights Round 6 vs Western Bulldogs WB 13.9 (87) def by St Kilda 14.10 (94) Easily the craziest game of football I’ve ever seen, saw the Saints dominated by the Dogs for the whole first half. Until a 2nd half resurgence lead by 4 goals from Billings saw St Kilda come back from 55 points down to win. Round 11 vs Melbourne St Kilda 12.13 (85) d Melbourne 12.11(83) While not the best quality game of the season this game was particularly entertaining with an amazingly tight last quarter where neither team could score until the last minute when a late Jeremy Howe goal put Melbourne ahead, only for Steven and Montagna to perform an amazing game winning goal with 11 seconds left List Changes “There are two kinds of pain. The sort of pain that makes you strong. Or useless pain. The sort of pain that's only suffering. I have no patience for useless things. Moments like this require someone who will act. To do the unpleasant thing. The necessary thing... [puts the player out of his misery] There, no more pain.”
Jake Carlisle & Pick #14
Pick #5 & Pick #24
Nathan Freeman & Pick #68
2016 2nd round pick & Pick #63
2015 NATIONAL DRAFT
Albury Football Club
2016 Preview "For those of us climbing to the top of the food chain, there can be no mercy. There is but one rule: Hunt or be hunted." 2016 will mark another year of development for the St Kilda football club, Where we hope the young stars of the future will begin to take a greater control of the team from the veterans. We will likely see all three national draft selections make their debuts Our midfield will be lead again by the core group of Armitage, Steven, Dunstan and Weller with Billings, Lonie and Sinclair beginning to spend more time in the Middle Our Defence will be lead by Veterans Fisher and Dempster. Young Hugh Goddard should see a lot of action with Carlisle missing this year. Don’t be surprised to see Tom Lee thrown into the back line in 2016 Our Forward line will be led by Riewoldt Bruce. He is Love, he is Life. He will hopefully have support from, Billings, Ross, Lonie and Sinclair, with McCartin hopefully to have a solid second season. What we should expect to see is Riewoldt spending less time in the forward line and pushing up the ground more. Giving McCartin and Bruce more time to control the forward line Senior List “You may have all the money, Eddie, but I have all the accurate full forwards”
Players to Watch
Darren Minchington - Picked up in 2012 as a rookie, Darren has come a long way, at his best he can be a line breaking, damaging half forward. Unfortunately he has found himself somewhat down the pecking order, last year he was competing with; Billings, Sinclair, Lonie, Membrey & others for a spot in the team, with the inclusion of J. Gresham & N. Freeman this year looks to be no simpler.
Patrick McCartin - How will last years number one pick adapt to AFL football after his first season? With Riewoldt likely to be spending more time on the wing and in the middle, look to see McCartin get more time and freedom inside the forward 50. Nathan Freeman - The only top 10 pick from the 2013 draft who is yet to make his debut due to injuries. He looked to leave Collingwood for a fresh start. A Jet when healthy, he will be sure to add some much needed outside speed to the Saints midfield Jake Carlisle - The Saints big recruit for 2015 got off to a poor start with a poorly timed line of coke, Hopefully with a big preseason he can atone for his sins and join the team in time for his club debut in round 3 What's next? Snap chatting himself doing lines of coke off of a burning drawf highschooler? Players on notice “Nobody’s a Boy Scout. Not even Boy Scouts”
Tom Lee - Not sure he has the talent / body to make it, he'll need one helluva year to stay on IMO. Luke Delaney - Probably safe on the basis that Fisher will probably retire at the end of the year and we'd be screw'd if one of Goddard or Carlisle goes down.
Darren Minchinton - Can turn the game on his head when he’s playing well, but also can never seem to get some consistent form, He needs to play so consistant footy or he’ll find himself as trade bait
Nousernames-left “I'm not going to lie. I despise Snapchat. There. I've said it.”
Jake Carlisle - goes without saying. You fuck up, you fuck off.
meatpie_lover Best 22 “I love this team. I love them more than sharks love blood” FB: Dempster, Fisher, Geary HB: Savage, Goddard, Webster C:Montagna, Ross, Newnes HF Sinclair, Riewoldt, Membery FF Lonie, Bruce, McCartin Foll Longer, Steven, Armitage I/C Billings, Gilbert, Dunstan, Weller Expectations for 2016 "When you've been in the wasteland as long as I have, you become immune to flattery"
Winning all the winnable games. We should put away Carlton, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Essendon and probably Melbourne. Mixing it with the middle of the pack otherwise
Being competitive for the whole games, no blowouts and Improved accuracy when goal kicking
-Nousermanes-left Concerns for 2016 “Love of the club: most footballers are permanently chained to that slogan, club loyalty. But when you cozy up to opposition clubs and I find out, I will make that hypocrisy hurt.” Goal Kicking - Countless times last year the Saints kicked themselves out of games, this needs to change if we want to be serious in pushing for finals and winning close games. Midfielders - Too many times in 2014 when Steven or Armitage were taken out of the game via a tag, we struggled to get the ball forward and keep it there. we need to now if our current midfielders have the ability to hold their own against other strong midfields “Dodoro and I have a good working relationship. Or used to. You can see he has a temper, but I can usually cut through that and reason with him. But I may have pushed him too far, which is worrisome. Friends make the worst enemies.” Jake Carlisle - This trade can have a massive impact on the club. In particular how Jake Carlisle commits to this year off. There are two ways this could go, either he can enjoy the time off with a snapchat world tour in which he tests Coke from all around the world and he never plays a game for St Kilda. Or he works hard, keeps his nose clean literally and St Kilda get the defender we need while not paying him anywhere near as much as we first were. Josh Bruce's Haircuts The Normal The Debut The Glorious Man Bun 2016options Pass Mark "Melbourne is blocking my way. Gold Coast at my heels. There can be no false steps now. The higher up the mountain, the more treacherous the path"
12-14. We've recruited carefully, got another pre-season into our young stars and should expect the improvement to continue. Getting 10/11 by season's end would take a fair bit of luck, so 12 is a good target.
It's five days after Christmas Day, 1986. Swift Current, Saskatchewan is exactly as you would expect on that day - cold, grey and kind of dreary. Freezing rain is in the forecast, along with the strong winds that Prairie residents have spent their whole lives fighting. A bus full of hockey players is setting off from the town's main arena, the Centennial Civic Centre. The bus makes a left, makes a right, gets onto the Trans-Canada Highway toward Regina. The players are members of the town's local junior team, the Broncos. Later that night, they'll suit up against the Pats. There's a right curve on the highway out of town that takes you on an overpass over the Canadian Pacific Railway. On this December day, the freezing rain and cold conditions turned that overpass into an icy slip and slide, causing vehicles to carom everywhere. The bus is travelling well below the speed limit when it first hits that icy patch. The bus starts skidding and driver Dave Archibald can't regain control. The bus is heading for an embankment. Archibald can't save it. He turns and yells out, “Hang on!”. The 1986-87 season was meant to be a celebratory one for Swift Current hockey fans. The city would, finally, have a major junior hockey team again. The Lethbridge Broncos were moving to town. The problems started after the announcement. Several Lethbridge veterans refused to move or play in a town as small as Swift Current, which boasts around 15,000 people. Once deals were made, the key players were chosen. Forward Warren Babe was supposed to help score, but he flamed out and was traded. That left the door open for others, younger players who were hungry and had something to prove. Two of the younger players hoping to prove they belong were Trent Kresse and Scott Kruger. For Kruger, the Broncos were a family affair. Kruger was born and raised in Swift. His younger brothers, twins Trevor and Darren, were both Broncos prospects, with Trevor playing as the team's backup goalie. His uncle Lorne Frey was the assistant coach. His mother, a local character everyone called “Fanner”, followed the team on road trips and never missed a game in Swift. Kruger even played for Swift Current's old Junior A team, the Indians, two years before, chalking up almost two assists a game. Kresse was an older player, more experienced. The offseason before heading to Swift, he proposed to his girlfriend. They were planning a wedding for after the season ended. One key figure, Kurt Lackten, was trying to make the best of a bad situation. When several of the Broncos' skilled older players demanded trades, some were dealt to the Calgary Wranglers. Lackten got send to Swift in the trade. A late round NHL draft pick, Lackten wanted to make his name in the junior ranks with a tough, two-way game. He became the team's captain quickly. Another pair of skaters, Sheldon Kennedy and Joe Sakic, were both very young but showed great promise. Sakic, a skinny kid from Vancouver, was hoping to break out in his new home, while Kennedy was a player known to hockey fans in the region from his time with the Moose Jaw Warriors, only an hour down the Trans-Canada. Kennedy's coach in Moose Jaw, Graham James, took a job with the Broncos as their head coach and GM. James instituted a fast-paced, skill-heavy game that gave his top players – including Kresse, Kruger, Sakic and Kennedy – room to breathe. That system relied on a key element of 1980's junior hockey – the enforcer. Chris Mantyka, a tough kid with a goatee from Saskatoon, took that role and ran with it. Another player, Brent Ruff, the youngest son of a hockey family that included his brother Lindy, cut his teeth by playing fourth-line minutes and digging in the corners. The team came together over the first 36 games and went their separate ways for Christmas. The game they were travelling to Regina for was their first one back. In any car accident, no matter how big or small, there's a few seconds of pause between when all the chaotic movement stops and survival instincts kick in. Everyone has the same reactions, more or less – being stunned, trying to regain equilibrium, not sure if you're upside down or not. The bus slid off the road and off the overpass after the bridge. After skidding on frozen grass, the bus hit an embankment and went flying through the air. It landed on its side, skidding to a stop in the ditch. The chaos stopped and, when the pause ended, the commotion really began. The first player to do anything was Lackten, who crawled out of his seat and yelled back to check who was alright. He instructed everyone to get out through the buses' windshield, cracked and destroyed in the wreck. Once everyone who could get out got out – including James, Archibald, and both Sakic and Kennedy – players did a head count to see if everyone had made it. They hadn't. The players fanned out to check the scene on Lackten's instruction. One player, Tim Tisdale, was stuck in his seat inside the bus with an injured back. They pulled him outside. A voice came from the distance. Two guys were in the ditch. Lackten and his teammates came running. Kresse and Kruger were in the ditch. They had been in the back, not wearing their seatbelts, and were thrown from the bus when it hit the embankment. Neither was breathing. Lackten tried CPR on both, but it was no use. Trent Kresse and Scott Kruger were both dead. Another voice came from the bus site. Someone had heard something. The crowd came running back to the bus and were greeted with a single, horrifying sentence. “Get the fucking bus off of me!” Chris Mantyka was pinned underneath. A few of the players tried to lift the bus. It didn't budge. Mantyka was bleeding heavily and gravely injured. He died while his teammates tried to free him. A number of motorists on the highway had pulled over to assess the situation. A few pulled U-turns and drove back to town to alert authorities. Truckers called for help on their CB radios. Some drivers took the uninjured drivers home before ambulances arrived. One player found a leg sticking out from underneath the bus. It was Ruff. The youngster had been playing cards in the back of the bus with Kresse, Kruger and Mantyka and was also pinned beneath the bus when it crashed. There was nothing anyone could do. In the space of ten minutes, the Swift Current Broncos went from preparing for a rivalry gameto seeing four of their teammates die in front of them. After the crash, a massive wake was planned in the team's Civic Centennial Centre. Planks of plywood were dropped over the ice to make room for thousands of chairs. The rink only officially holds 3,239 people with standing room, but you can bet more than twice as many people filed in to pay their respects. The Kruger family made it down, too. Fate struck them an even worse hand, as earlier that week, during a private memorial service for Scott, his great-grandfather dropped to his knees and suffered a massive heart attack. He died before he could be taken out of the church. Town officials and team organizers spoke to the throng about the four young men and who they were on and off the ice. Lackten, who had been so valiant in the moments after the crash, spoke to the crowd too, wearing his jersey with the captain's "C" on it. "We're gonna miss them very much," he said to the onlookers, choking back tears. There was a serious debate over whether the team should cancel the season after the accident. After all, how can you focus on hockey when you've just seen four of your closest friends die? The crash became a turning point for Graham James. Before the crash, he was seen as an oddball, a hockey outcast who would maybe amount to being an average coach, nothing more. His actions after the accident had serious short and long-term effects. Coach James held a player meeting in the dressing room. He asked all the team's players, one-by-one, whether they wanted to continue playing. Maybe they were still shaken up, maybe they were wanting to do what they felt honoured the four best, maybe they were intimidated by the coach asking them in front of all their teammates. Each player voted to keep playing. The team remained in lockstep in all decisions, most of which James himself played a big role in. Other teams offered to loan the Broncos players, but James refused the charity, instead calling up four players which the team had cut earlier in the season. The team's practice and game schedules were unchanged. Another curious red flag was how James handled the idea of player counselling. When the coach was offered team counselling sessions for his players, he rejected the idea immediately. He said the team could handle the tragedy internally and didn't need a lot of psychologists poking around and asking the players tough questions. Whatever the reasons were for James' decisions, the team somehow thrived. Sakic played like a man possessed after the crash, showing all the signs of the player he'd later become in Colorado. He won the WHL's Rookie of the Year award and was named his division's Player of the Year – an award that was renamed the Four Broncos Trophy after his fallen teammates. Lackten anchored the team with his gritty two-way play, and Kennedy ended the season just as hot as Sakic. Despite every conceivable odd stacked against the Swift Current Broncos, the team made the playoffs. The run didn't last very long – the Medicine Hat Tigers, also not far down the road from Swift, swept the Broncos in the first round, but it almost didn't matter. Somehow the team had salvaged a bright future from the darkest pit possible. During the 1987-88 season, the Broncos were almost a team of destiny. Sakic and Kennedy led the team's top line with Peter Soberlak, a lanky scoring machine who also kicked his way through the windshield on that fateful day. Rock-solid defenseman Dan Lambert, who was playing at the World Juniors at the time of the crash, stayed on defence and formed the top pair with Bob Wilkie. Following in his footsteps, both Sakic and Kennedy played in that year's World Junior tournament. Both of Scott Kruger's younger brothers, Trevor and Darren, both took regular shifts. Trevor became the team's starting goalie, while Darren became a one-man power-play wrecking crew on defence. Sakic brought the team a little gift from the West Coast – his younger brother Brian, who became a key player himself. Joe, to the surprise of almost nobody, exploded again on offence, leading the WHL in scoring and getting both WHL and CHL player of the year honours. The Broncos made it back into the playoffs, beat the Regina Pats 3-1 in the first round, but lost out to the Saskatoon Blades in the second round. In 1988-89, Joe Sakic had left for Quebec, but Brian was still there, along with most of the cast from the season previous. A new hero emerged to help the team's cause. Tim Tisdale, the boy from Shaunavon who grew up playing in Swift, who had hurt his back in the crash and underwent vertebrae fusion surgery afterwards, took Joe's spot and ran with it. Peter Kasowski, a top playmaker, emerged as a threat. The Broncos packed the Civic Centennial Centre again, this time for happier reasons – they were unstoppable. By the time the season ended, the Broncos were tops in the league, 25 points clear of any other team. The team ran train on other sides in the playoffs, sweeping Moose Jaw in the first round and sweeping Saskatoon in the second. In the finals, Swift Current played Portland, but they weren't a capable challenge. They got swept, too. The Swift Current Broncos won the WHL title without losing any games, a feat that had never been done before. In two and a half years, the Swift Current Broncos went from rock bottom to cloud nine and a Memorial Cup berth. In 1989, the Memorial Cup was not that far from Swift Current, about a five-hour bus ride away in Saskatoon in the brand new Saskatchewan Place. Swift and S'toon would both play, along with the Peterborough Petes and the Laval Titan. Swift Current ran through both outside teams, beating the Petes 6-4 and Laval 6-5. However, the Broncos were upset by the Blades 5-4, weeks after sweeping them in the second round handily. The fastest team in the west would need to earn their spot in the finals the hard way, facing the Petes again in a win-or-go-home semi-final. They advanced easily with a 6-2 win. The final would be a good-ol'-fashioned Sask showdown. North vs. South. City vs. country. Underdog vs. juggernaut. SaskPlace was packed. CTV affiliates showed the game on their air instead of the evening news. People packed into living rooms and basements, gathering around big wood-panel TVs to watch the big game. The Broncos struck first with Sheldon Kennedy finding twine. Later, Blake Knox made it 2-0 Swift Current. Then, things shifted. The Blades scored one goal, then added another one and fired one more past Trevor Kruger, giving Saskatoon a 3-2 lead. The Blades, on home ice with a friendly crowd, smelled blood. A Blades victory was coming closer until a breakaway in the 3rd period. Rookie Kimbi Daniels and Kennedy went in deep. Daniels swatted one past Blade goalie Mike Greenlay and tied the game up. The game was tied after 60 minutes. Overtime commenced. The Blades went right back to smelling blood. They brought the puck into the Swift Current zone and fired a shot off on Trevor Kruger. Saved. A rebound. Saved. The puck swung out again. Another save. Another one. Another one. Kruger made five saves in just under three minutes. Finally, Swift cleared the zone. Darren Kruger took the puck through the neutral zone. He faked toward the slot, then cut fast to the outside, leaving a defenseman sprawling. Heading into the corner, Kruger was running out of options and had to ditch the puck off. Kennedy was coming in front, with a defender draped on him. Greenlay was watching closely. Behind everybody, Tim Tisdale was standing with his stick down on the far end of the crease. Kruger knew he'd have a hard time finding Tisdale, but if he could thread the needle and get the puck past three people, there'd be a sure goal. Kruger rolled the dice and passed. The puck went just off the ice. The defender didn't see it. It whizzed past Greenlay. It ended up on Tisdale's stick. Open net. Tap in. Goal. Red light. Green light. Get the trophy. Swift Current was the officially the best junior team in the world. The crowd went nuts. The players collapsed with relief and joy. Fans in rec rooms across Saskatchewan either jumped for joy or crumpled into the couch. The trophy was awarded to the team, but after the high of the goal wore off and the awards were given out, the team was wiped, even sombre - almost as if they knew four guys should have been there with them. Turns out, for at least one player on the team, there was another reason to be dour in victory. One of the awards doled out afterwards was given out by hockey's newspaper of record, the Hockey News. It was given to Graham James. The plaque he was given had four words in black text on it - “MAN OF THE YEAR”. NHL teams were knocking, but James, ever the situational hard-ass, stayed in the town they call “Speedy Creek.” It could have been happily ever after for him, becoming one of those small-town hockey institutions – the guy who coached for forty years, won titles, brought up the local kids and sent them to the big time. It wasn't like that. It would never be like that. Throughout his tenure as a coach, even back in Moose Jaw, there had been whispers about James' personal proclivities. No proof, mind you, just chatter. Opposing fans who knew bits and pieces – that James could be abuse, had a tumultuous personal life, oddly close relationships with current and past players – would target James and his players with taunts on the ice. Some fans chanted “James' buttboys” at the Broncos during road games. One of the players who got this treatment the most was Sheldon Kennedy. His path through hockey was intertwined with James, ever since James first found him at a hockey camp when he was 14. It was James that signed him up with the Warriors, and who specifically picked him out when he was hired with the Broncos. Kennedy left Swift for the Red Wings system after the Memorial Cup win, heading into the farm system. He began drinking heavily, was often injured, started falling into stronger and stronger substances. Gradually, his professional career, one that was chock-full of potential, fell apart. In 1996, seven years after his moment of glory in Saskatoon, Sheldon Kennedy told the public why things fell apart – that Graham James, the “Man of the Year” and junior hockey juggernaut, had repeatedly raped and abused him, and others, for years. We now know that Sheldon Kennedy wasn't James' only victim. James had been abusing kids for years before he ever set foot on the Broncos' bench. In his early days as a substitute teacher in Winnipeg – a job that he got after apparently lying about having a teaching degree – James was in contact with children constantly. When he started coaching hockey in 1979, James' documented instances of abuse began, repeatedly abusing player Greg Gilhooly. Once he saw Kennedy and his friend Theoren Fleury at that hockey camp, James brought both boys under his wing. He began grooming them young, saying they could become massive stars if they did everything he said. The requests got more and more intimate, and James got more and more intimidating, threatening to end the boys' careers if they stopped or told anyone. When James became coach and GM of the Moose Jaw Warriors, he signed both Kennedy and Fleury, not solely because they were great players, but for his own twisted purposes. Fleury stayed in Moose Jaw when James left, but when Kennedy was sent to Swift, the abuse continued. His teammates began noticing something was off. Before the crash and his death, Scott Kruger allegedly mentioned to his mother that he was very suspicious of his coach. Another player who joined the Broncos after the Cup win, Todd Holt – coincidentally a cousin of Fleury – was also abused in Swift. Those four names – Gilhooly, Kennedy, Fleury and Holt – are the four victims we know about. James has pled guilty to literally hundreds of instances of abuse. Two other victims have come forward but refused to give their names. There could be much more. After his first prison sentence for his actions toward Kennedy was done, James – under a different name – was running youth hockey camps abroad. There's no telling what horror he got up to there, or in the Winnipeg education system. The Broncos still play at the Civic Centennial Centre today. It's been renamed after a corporate sponsor – it's now the Credit Union iPlex – and the team hasn't returned to its previous highs or lows since. The players have moved on to new lives – Kurt Lackten now flies planes for Hawaiian Airlines, while Sakic works with the Colorado Avalanche as their GM. Tim Tisdale, the Memorial Cup hero, still lives in Swift Current and goes to Broncos games all the time. Darren Kramer was a head coach in the WHL, while Kennedy spends his days advocating for abused youths and raising public awareness about James and his crimes. Graham James is now 65 and has been prison for most of the time since Kennedy came forward. He served 18 months in jail for his abuse of Kennedy before being paroled. He was fully pardoned of his crimes by the federal government in 2007, an action that nobody knew of until one of his victims found out and leaked details to the Canadian Press. In 2011, he pled guilty again to offences toward Fleury and another player after Fleury went public. He was eventually sentenced to five years in prison, with another two years added on later after more offences came to light. Last year, James was granted full parole. At last check, he was working with a technology sales company in Montreal under an assumed name. Meanwhile, not far from the overpass near Swift where that bus slid off more than 20 years ago, there's a memorial, a concrete pad with a granite four-leaf clover on it. The clover – which the team has used as a symbol and logo ever since the accident – shows the faces of Trent Kresse, Scott Kruger, Chris Mantyka and Brent Ruff. On the back of it is a paragraph detailing the crash and what happened to the four young men. On the bottom, in all caps, is a four-word phrase. It says, “YOU ARE FINALLY HOME”.
If you want to read more about the weird, forgotten or amazing bits of hockey history, visit our subreddit at /wayback_wednesday. You'll find dozens of articles just like this one. We'll be back soon with another article. If you have any ideas or information for later Wayback Wednesday posts, please don't hesitate to message me or comment below. I'm never too busy to answer questions about these.
The following post by makemoneyway is being replicated because the post has been silently removed. The original post can be found(in censored form) at this link: np.reddit.com/ Bitcoin/comments/7c7zwz The original post's content was as follows:
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